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The whole process of background check is unconstitutional, states already know in advance of looking who does not qualify for a firearm and preserving the weight of lethal force prior to any history search per person. What should be done is a legal united State qualification by information already available in each state to Identification in a state level. Who can? Who cannot?
All Identification can have a Conditional qualification or disqualification signifying who clearly is qualified who is not without prejudice. Meaning for gun owner or non-gun owner alike. The 2nd amendment is about the weight of lethal force and not gun per-say so who refuses to bear arm has legal consequences as a duty..
The 2nd amendment creates a duty to bear arm so that all men in the united states are created equal by burden of lethal force and the weight it bears publicly. There is no reason to believe this duty doesn't hold for woman placed under a United State of Presadera with any armament as well.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: Executive officer    true united state records   state President   basic principle  
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Re: As stated before, this debate of mine isn't necessarily predicated upon the U.S., but as to discuss a matter of objective principle, though I can see how you'd assume as such. However, I'm not certain the U.S. meets my agenda when there are rampant mass shootings taking place. That fact alone seems to disprove that the U.S. is managing to properly handle its vetting processes, for if it wielded such things properly we wouldn't be seeing things like constant mass slaughter by firearm.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: such things    matter of objective principle   fact   vetting processes  
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To address the United States even further, the picture is not as clear as you seem to be trying to make it out to be. The U.S. functions under differing hierarchies of power, like the federal government, individual state governments, etc. This can easily allow for vastly different gun legislation depending on each individual territory. Also, there are problems with loopholes like the gun show loophole, which allows for easy purchase of firearms without such heavy surveillance, such as this CNN clip illustrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB7MwvqCtlk. Additionally, gun legislation is not in a frozen state, but one potentially added upon or chipped away by the current leaders that be. As one piece of evidence, Donald Trump has made it easier for more people with mental illness to acquire guns by rolling back Obama-era legislation, as sourced by NBC News here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/president-trump-made-it-easier-mentally-ill-get-guns-when-n1039301. So, the issue of whether or not unfit people can gain guns is far more complex and dynamic that you appear to assert.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: different gun legislation    gun show loophole   United States   federal government  
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Re: I don't disagree with you, for, as I've pointed out to my main contender in my debating with him, laws, logically speaking, aren't designed out of some ideal that all crime pertaining to the law will absolutely stop, but rather it is to diminish the crime as much as possible within the domain of force and oversight.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: main contender    laws   crime   law  
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  Considerate: 68%  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: black market    purchase firearms   People   point  
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Re: Well, child traffickers engage on the black market too should we not invest in time and resources cracking down on these operations as well, by your logic?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: JesusisGod777888    black market   child traffickers   resources  
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Re: Maybe, maybe not. Depends on each case. The main point of bringing that example up is to demonstrate that individual presidents have the capacity to add upon or deconstruct gun regulation. And that's just one of the issues I happened to list.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: main point    example up   individual presidents   issues  
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Re: These things add evidence to the fact that, in the United States, the issue of unfit people being able to acquire firearms is far more complicated than what you're claiming it to be.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: United States    issue of unfit people   things   evidence  
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Re: Although I haven't seen you list any sources for your claim that violent crime has gone down under Trump, I'll accept the premise to go ahead and be kind (though violent crime isn't necessarily the same as gun crime). However, crimes like mass shootings are a staggering problem in the U.S., as CBS News found that, when the article was written on September 1st of 2019, the total amount of mass shootings in this country had surpassed the number of days of the year so far at that point, https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mass-shootings-2019-more-mass-shootings-than-days-so-far-this-year/. And this just encompasses mass shootings and not all other types of gun-related crimes. From observation, there is necessarily a gun problem in this country. The solution for the U.S. is obviously to strengthen federal and state legislation to unanimously be as comprehensive as possible while also exerting force to crack down on black market operations and other exterior loopholes.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: mass shootings    violent crime   total amount of mass shootings   state legislation  
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Re: I'd like to revisit your original comment on my debate post to keep things from getting muddied too much in the arguments around effective legislative policy, data and other aspects of our current conversation.
Your original comment on my debate post said, "Anyone CAN purchase firearms, and there isn't a single law that would prevent that. It is ALREADY ILLEGAL for a convicted felon or someone with a history of drug abuse or serious mental illness to buy a firearm. The fact that such people as still able to obtain firearms undermines any further attempts to empower the government for such purposes."
Your philosophy is evident from the second sentence, so that's what I want to really pin down. Do you not recognize that stating that the government shouldn't be empowered to pursue law X simply because people still commit crime X is a logical fallacy? If you recognize that this is a logical fallacy, then what is your contention at this point ideologically?
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Re: Regardless of whether or not mass shootings, statistically speaking, haven't been reported until more recent periods of time, that doesn't dismiss the fact that these numbers of mass shootings are one for alarm, because these are hundreds of killings via firearm in not even within the span of a full year. That's no small number within slightly over half a year. Where's your evidence that mainstream media is engaging in this cabal of sorts to vilify gun ownership and legitimate self-defense? Ideally, we should strive for a society where both mass shootings and ordinary shootings decreased, I don't know why you're presenting this as an either/or issue, if that's what you're claiming. Furthermore, on your point of private transfer, if I understand private transfer in this context to mean the transferring of firearms by one private individual to another, then that only encompasses one dynamic in the possessing and distributing of firearms.
Aside from that, you still need to answer my simple line of questioning. Do you recognize that your claim that the government shouldn't be empowered to pursue law X because there are still lawbreakers of law X is a logical fallacy? If you do, then what's your new counterargument philosophically?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: mass shootings    point of private transfer   numbers of mass shootings   recent periods of time  
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Re: This is an issue, because the fact that the amount of victims accumulated are going down does not negate that these crimes are still being perpetrated at mass scale. The MRC, as described by Wikipedia, is a conservative source. I can’t trust sources that are biased. Need a better one.
The number of mass shootings itself is not meaningless because not only is it directly reflecting people perpetrating gun crimes, but also reflects the potential for things to become worse down the road, even if it doesn’t totally sway the downward trend you’ve mentioned.
To your point of private transfers once more, I’ll go ahead and concede to your point on private transfers simply because I’m not adequately acquainted enough with this particular discussion. So, I’ll shift the focus on the broader issue. Gun deaths are increasing in the U.S., as noted by https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/health/firearm-homicide-suicides-increasing-study/index.html. Also, as noted by https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/gun-background-checks-florida-school-shooting/index.html, the current background checks do not catch early warning signs of disturbed individuals. Also, as stated by this latter source, not all aspects of individuals may be screened which are important, which can mean things like public threats are not observed. So, contrary to your perspective, loopholes and flaws do exist and each state can have their own individual laws which may restrict or expand access to guns by individuals.
To your point about your philosophy, I agree that one should be able to defend themselves. Yet, the constitutional argument is, at its heart, a fallacy of appealing to tradition. We can change the constitutional framework within the United States so that we can embark on these matters without legally infringing upon individuals.
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Re: The debate I'm most interested in is debating your philosophy of self-defense and your abiding by the constitution, as this is the heart of your contrary argumentation. Not to say I won't debate other points, but I view that this is the most fruitful direction to carry our discourse onward.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: debate    philosophy of self-defense   points   fruitful direction  
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Not to say I disagree with you, but you've admitted yourself that the issue of whether or not unfit people can gain (access to) guns is far more complex. Since you've admitted the complexities of figuring out those who are unfit, you've also admitted how complex it will be for vetting them out of gun ownership, and I'm not at all convinced by you about this supposed vetting systems effectiveness. Obviously mass shooters have malicious agendas, which you've gone over many times, but you haven't even begun to touch upon how this vetting system can actually bring to light an individuals potentially harmful mindset. It would seem to me that if I were being psychologically screened to determine whether I'm fit for gun ownership, it would be in my best interest to not be forthcoming with my seething anger and fears of a certain portion of society, or all of society if that was the case.
Psychologists are very intelligent people, but they can't look into your brain and see if you're a radical racist who thinks the earth is overpopulated and you've been chosen by God to correct that. 75% of all mass shooters had absolutely no signs of being vengeful radicals. If that 75% had been psychologically vetted before they committed their atrocities, could you say with certainty that most of them would have failed the screening and would have been barred from owning guns? Lets say the individuals who make up that 75% were subjected to psychological screenings by multiple psychologists, can you say with certainty that the same number of them would have been barred from gun ownership by every single psychologist? Although none of us can say for certain what the conclusions to those psychological screenings would have been, I'd be willing to bet that most of those mass shooters would not have failed a psychological screening, and the results from multiple psychologists would not have been uniform across the board, and I'm willing to bet everyone on here would agree. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but it would be interesting for you to describe this psychological screening process that could find the "silver bullet" warning signs that all potential mass shooters have.
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Old data. "Researchers looked at firearm homicides and suicides from 2012-13 to 2015-16". The FBI data I've already posted shows an increase in 2015 and 2016, in fact I've already noted it. That short bump reversed in 2017 and accelerated downward in 2018. Once again, the current murder rate is below what is was in 1960, the current violent crime rate is below what it was in 1970.
So you're idea it to expand a system that you consider to have proven itself to be ineffective? That doesn't sound like a winning strategy.
I never said the system was perfect, but then you've said you don't expect it to stop a particular crime at all instances 100.00%. It works well enough considering the current crime rates and trends.
The Constitutional argument is hardly a fallacy, it's the law. As you've noted, it can be changed. It includes a method for making such changes. If you think there's enough public support for the changes you'd like to make, go for it.  Considerate: 100%  
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Re: The issue with your claim is that you assume you can only determine that one has malicious agendas by examining their minds, which is, frankly, to your credit, near impossible. We can instead examine things like social media for evidence of anger and/or mental instability, we can have an expanded mental health apparatuses that work to detect troubled individuals early on and work in joint operation with other departments to ensure these individuals are blocked from accessing guns, we can go through rigorous psychological evaluations and testing periods to gather as much data as possible, et cetera. There are lots of opportunities when you think outside of the box about these things, but such measures can only be effective if we make sure that they are comprehensive and are strictly followed through. Now, I’m not a psychologist of any nature so I can’t go into too deep of detail because the depths of these matters are beyond my expertise, though still I can understand the basics of what needs to be done by exercising logic.
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Re: To add, I'm not saying that looking at exterior data can prove these things at equal or better capacity than being able to read peoples' minds, but instead that they suffice enough as strong evidence.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: exterior data    strong evidence   better capacity   things  
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Re: I don't know how I missed your post. Whether by delay or by simple error of the eye, I'll now correct this by responding...
But I’ve proven that your sources are conservative, not simply dismissed them as such.
I’m not stating that the United States should expand upon its flawed system, but instead have part of the resolution mean a resolving of the flaws which make it faulty to begin with. There’s nothing illogical about expanding a system which has been systematically patched up.
As for your point on the system being good enough as it is, that point simply doesn’t hold up both logically and empirically. Logically, if there are still lots of gun crime and gun deaths, an issue worth ameliorating is evident. Empirically, other nations have done far better in their attempts than the United States has. As for some examples, in Japan, if a person wishes to buy firearms, they must pass rigorous testing of their knowledge and skills, as well as undergo a mental-health evaluation at a hospital, as well as a background check, which is far more comprehensive in that it digs through crime records or ties and interviews friends and family members, and, then, onto Britain, they banned the private ownership of handguns, along with semiautomatic and pump-action firearms, and now there are 3.78 guns per 100 people in the U.K., whereas in the U.S., there are 101 guns per 100 people, along with there being only 50 to 60 gun deaths a year (the U.S. has 160 times as many). Source https://www.businessinsider.com/gun-deaths-nearly-eliminated-in-countries-what-us-can-learn-2017-11#the-united-kingdom-took-a-multipronged-approach-4.
For your constitutional argument, it is a fallacy if you’re saying that it holds validity simply due to it being in the document. Now, debating the efficacy of such change is far different than being ideologically opposed.
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On March 23, 2018, the Fix NICS Act was signed into law by President Trump.
The fallacy is suggesting that the US Constitution is merely a document. It is the foundation of American society.
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Re: The logical fallacy of poisoning the well is where you preemptively apply an ad hominem attack to your opponent to delegitimize them. This is not the same thing because, one, it is an accurate description, and, two, I’m not saying that source X is conservative so therefore source X is false, I’m saying source X is biased due to its conservative inclinations, so therefore I can’t trust source X because I can’t fully discern whether or not the information from source X is being affected by its biased inclinations because I don’t have the expertise to fully evaluate these things myself. So, no, I will not stop engaging in correct courses of action.
You need to give me a source which dives into the details and implications of this bill signed by Trump.
What about me talking about other countries negates my point I made about the U.S.?
To your point on the U.K.’s crime statistics, this does appear to be a legitimate issue, though this encompasses all crime and not just gun crime, and so you need to provide me with data with what these numbers create in terms of implications for gun crime itself in the U.K.
Your response to my supposed fallacy is actually a fallacy. I said, “X is not valid just because X is in document Y.” In return, you replied, “Y is not merely a document.”
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Why do I have to spoon-feed you? You obviously have access to Google, look it up.
Once again, your argument was that "The U.S. functions under differing hierarchies of power, like the federal government, individual state governments, etc. This can easily allow for vastly different gun legislation depending on each individual territory." I shouldn't have to mention that other countries "function under differing hierarchies of power", thus this can easily vastly skew differing crime statistics depending on each individual territory. What is considered a crime in one country may be considered a lessor crime, or no crime at all in another country; for instance, slavery is still practiced in a number of African countries. In addition, different countries have different methods of reporting crime. In the US, if a body is found shot to death with 5 bullet holes in his back, it's counted as a murder. Going back to the UK, they see things differently;
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm
In the UK, that same body with 5 bullet holes in it is NOT counted as a murder UNTIL THERE IS A CONVICTION. If there is never a conviction, that murder isn't counted as a crime.
No, I've already proven that the UK numbers are unreliable. It is incumbent upon YOU to prove that your numbers have any value at all.
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Re: I'm gonna have to devote an entire separate post toward breaking down sources for you to understand how to utilize them...
1) You're not an expert in health but want to discuss matters of public health.
2) Since you yourself do not have the expertise to discern these things yourself, you need to get the information from a source other than yourself that does have expertise to tell you the information you strive to understand.
3) Can you trust just some health source out of the blue? No, because there is no means to validate their credentials on the matter.
4) Can you trust a health source that is selling a particular viewpoint? No, because the information they present is likely to be skewed and/or omitted to bend the data in their favor due to their evident bias.
5) So, who can you trust? One, you can trust educational sources because these sources have no operation other than to provide information to society. Two, you can trust news media sources which have had a longstanding reputation for being unbiased and trustworthy due to their history of journalistic integrity.
So, no, I'm not avoiding the substance due to me attacking the source, but rather I'm avoiding the substance because, since I'm not a certified expert on the topic, I don't have the means to discern for myself whether or not the politically biased source is skewing and/or omitting data to reach a conclusion favorable to its agenda.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: matters of public health    health source   news media sources   sources  
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Re: The reason I’m asking you to give me a citation for an in-depth look into Trump’s bill is because it is on you to prove your case to me. I’m not an expert on gun legislation so I need you to provide me with a reputable source which analyses this information.
Of course other countries function under different systems and structures, but how does this alone allow for these other countries alone to skew data in their favor? Other countries may have different classifications and categories of crime, sure, but still this is not enough to be sufficient proof for your case. As for your U.K. point, I’ll go ahead and use a source that predicates its data upon a multinational organization based in Switzerland. USA Today found that the number of gun homicides in England and Wales is 1 per 1 million people, and the other previous data is, in fact, backed up by this international organization, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/16/gun-violence-united-kingdom-united-states/85994716/. Some of this data includes the previous mention of there being 160 times as many gun homicides in the U.S., and the U.S. only has roughly six times larger the population. This adds more merit to these U.K. numbers as they are backed up by Switzerland’s Geneva Declaration of Armed Violence and Development.
I don’t have to point out a fallacy by name to know it’s a fallacy. A fallacy is a mistaken belief, especially one founded upon an unsound argument. Your argument is unsound because it does not refute my original statement, as it was intended to do. If I say, “X is not valid just because X is in document Y,” your response of “Y is not merely a document” is fallacious in this context because pointing out that there is more to document Y because of its historical and legal heritage does not negate the point I made which is that document Y doesn’t innately validate point X logically and objectively.
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Switzerland’s Geneva Declaration of Armed Violence and Development used the UK's discredited Home Office stats. Another swing and a miss.
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Re: It’s not my opinion that a source is untrustworthy because of its bias, that is just a factual observation. I’m not going to spend my time disproving your biased sources if you won’t spend some time, like I have, to find reliable sources to bolster your claim(s). There’s nothing that warrants time for disproof.
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Re: I didn’t have any issues when you listed the Telegraph or BBC. It’s not that hard to find sources that are reputable. But I’m not going to look up information on your behalf. To expect an ordinary person to have such extensive legislative expertise and understanding is absurd, so you need to do the homework of presenting information on the bill that is digestible for those who do not bear such credentials.
That’s what I said. The previous data is backed up by the Swiss organization. If a multinational organization reviews this information and is able to confirm it as valid, which does add far more credibility to the validity of these U.K. stats in particular.
Did you even read my fallacy section? I clearly laid out how, in practice, it is a fallacy. I don’t need a name to know it is a fallacy. My point is still goldenly true.
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Re: Once more, I never said or implied that source X is incorrect because source X has a political leaning. I said that since source X has a political leaning and that I personally can't discern its data as incorrect or correct, I have no choice but to avoid it because i can't tell if its baises affect its data. Tell me, if some left-winger provided you a left-leaning source for their claim on advanced economics, how could you trust the information in the source itself? Would you accept the data as given, go out of your way to do the homework for that opponent or wait for them to provide a reliable source to back up their claim?
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Show me where the Swiss organization demanded that the UK alter it's practices on crime reporting and that the UK complied.
You laid out gibberish; which fallacy is it specifically?
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[My debating on all current debates, including this one, is going to cease because I’ve decided to embark upon new debates with opening statements and formats that are more sufficient for my endeavors. However, despite my absence, others are free to continue on and all are free to judge for themselves who was triumphant in these dialogues.]
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Who is we, last time I checked the us goverment doesn't care.
do you people smoke?
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Are we going to assume all mass shooters are "unstable"? It seems your argument is starting to unravel. Mental illness (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "unstable") is not common among all mass shooters, in fact, most do not have any signs of any kind of mental illness. Only 4% of mass shooters can be positively diagnosed with a severe mental illness. When it comes to mass shooters, the percentage of them with mental illnesses are roughly the same percent of people with mental illness in society. Hatred, racism, and misanthropy are not symptoms of mental illness. Mental illness is not the common link among all mass shooters you're looking for.
My argument about mass shooters hiding their hostilities about other people is still pertinent when it comes to social media. They are not posting online how they are going to kill people. Where is your evidence that demonstrates mass shooters always send off warning signals that we are constantly missing? It seems that you're trying to make this more of a mental health, or social factor instead of what it actually is. If you have evidence of what exactly we should be looking for on social media or psychological factors that would stop even a single mass shooting, feel free to demonstrate that.
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Sorry, I wouldn't have addressed you directly if I had seen your earlier post about no longer being involved with this debate.
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It is a small number. Statistically, you are many times more likely to drown in your bathtub, than you are to become a victim of a mass shooting. Should we talk about "bathtub drowning epidemic"? Of course not. Nor should we talk about "mass shooting epidemic".
When discussing any issue on a national/world scale, you should talk about relative numbers, not absolute numbers. A hundred people killed in mass shootings a year in itself means absolutely nothing, and a hundred people dying in a year in China suggests a dramatically different picture, than a hundred people dying in a year in Vatican City.
That is why, statistically speaking, the following alleged issues are not really issues anywhere in the developed world:
- Gun violence.
- Terrorism.
- Extreme poverty.
- Police violence.
- Political censorship.
- Opioid crisis.
- Virus outbreaks.
Now, each of these alleged issues in a given country can suggest indirectly something else about it. For example, violent crime rates in the US being much higher than in most other developed countries, while not really an issue for the average American, does say something about the difference in cultures and societies. Similarly, Internet censorship being far more prevalent in Australia than almost anywhere else on the West suggests that Australians might be a bit less tolerant towards non-conformism, than others.
That is why it is the cause the needs to be addressed, not the effect. And the cause can be much harder to determine and address. Suppose we determine that in France poorer labor culture, causing countless economical mini-crises as a result of activity of labor unions, comes fundamentally from the culture focusing less on self-reliance and more on mutual reliance. Now what? How do we address it? There is no easy answer. That is just the truth.
However, "There is no easy answer" is not something that gets you seats in the government. If you have two candidates, one of which says, "Elect me, and we will have a very different country in 1 year, one you cannot even imagine!", and another says, "If you elect me, nothing will really change. The issues are complex, and we will work hard to address them, but let us be real, folks, it will take years or even decades to manifest in something." - then the latter will obviously lose the election.
That is why we keep seeing these non-issues discussed by all major political organisations all over the world again and again. While barely anyone talks about the fundamentals, which is what determines everything.
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